Victory, not truth

October 2, 2011 at 9:16+00:00Oct

Regrettably. Very regrettably.

Iain Hall

Dare I invoke Godwin’s Law Nigel?

Godwin’s Law is just a silly piece of internet humour. Tony Abbott is something much more serious.

Iain Hall

Nigel
You are sadly believing that Tony Abbott would be some sort of terrible bogey man, why precisely do you think this?
Surely You can’t think that our current government is either good or competent?
There is absolutely no reason to believe that a government led by Tony Abbott will be in any way extremist, that they will become in any sense like the fascist dictatorship that you are imagining here.

Look, lets be brutally honest and ask the pertinent question shall we?

Which is worse for you, and incompetent government, that is big on the grand gesture but utter shit on honesty or delivery, or a conservative government that is going to make sound administration its top priority and which will not be making any changes to the good reforms that have removed discriminations against same sex couples, or to the laws regarding abortion ect ect ect?
Its a choice between high minded empty rhetoric (from Labor) and practical competent government form the Coalition.

Agnes

We’re in trouble here, aren’t we?

Yeap, he says, and then dives back to hide under the cover of books and music.

Iain, the point the ‘poster’ is making is that down through the ages there have been others – dangerous others – who have focussed on winning at all costs, but the costs to society have ended up being truly horrific. Essentially it’s saying that where a leader has no moral conscience then the populace is in for a very interesting ride to say the least.

The Gillard Government is fumbling its way through a difficult parliament and extremely challenging economic times (I’m not necessarily a fan of Gillard and her colleagues, but let’s give credit where credit’s due), but Abbott is an unexploded bomb.

On a more prosaic note, what irks me about Abbott is his dumbing down of any kind of debate. His response to any proposition is ‘this is a bad policy by a bad government’. That is unconvincing, and is designed to appeal to those who can’t think, or don’t want to think.

No moral compass + a distrust of a thinking populace = not someone I want to lead this country.

Iain Hall

Sorry to disappoint you Nigel but I don’t think that Tony abbot is working in a “win at all costs” mode at all. He and the Coalition certainly have been playing to win by relentlessly keeping the pressure up on the government in terms of providing a strong critique of everything that they do but surely you would not expect anything less form an effective opposition? frankly I think the cost our society from Gillard’s ineptitude is far more horrific than anything than you can imagine about the coalition. and as for your suggestion that Tony Abbott has”no moral compass” that is seriously at odds with the fact that he is a Jesuit trained practising catholic who clearly has strong and sincere conservative values, that sounds like a moral compass to me, can agree that his compass exits but it does not point the direction that you would like it to rather than you insisting taht he is entirely amoral?

Abbott is an unexploded bomb.
I think that he will be a steady hand rather than a hand grenade in government Nigel and that he won’t be criminalising homosexuality or abortion, or insist that t everyone becomes Catholics, he has an eye on the long term and he is young enough and sensible enough not to follow Rudd and Gillard down the path of policy on the run and hasty decisions that do not lead to unforeseen consequences.

Finally I think that you are wrong about him “dumbing down ” debate because you seem to be confusing the TV sound-bite with debate .

Iain, a few things:

1. Abbott is reported to have said “I would do anything for this job. The only thing I wouldn’t do is sell my arse, but I’d have to give serious thought to it” – that sounds like win at all costs to me
2. Just because someone has had a religious education doesn’t mean that s/he has a working moral compass
3. Do I fear that Abbott with criminalise homosexuality? No. Do I think he’ll make life any easy for gay people? No. Do I think that he peddles fear of difference and minority? Absolutely.
4. Sure, the media go for sound-bites, but if Abbott can only provide ‘bad policy, bad government’, then that’s all they’re going to report.

Iain Hall

Nigel

1. Abbott is reported to have said “I would do anything for this job. The only thing I wouldn’t do is sell my arse, but I’d have to give serious thought to it” – that sounds like win at all costs to me

The quote is denied by Abbott, and the claim comes from Tony Windsor, who has some serious reasons to distort the events of that time, in any case even if Abbott said that it sounds more like quip that a serious statement of his intentions.

2. Just because someone has had a religious education doesn’t mean that s/he has a working moral compass

Hmm I don’t think that one studies to be a catholic priest without some serious contemplation of the nature of good and evil.

3. Do I fear that Abbott with criminalise homosexuality? No. Do I think he’ll make life any easy for gay people? No. Do I think that he peddles fear of difference and minority? Absolutely.

Why should he make life easier for Gay people Nigel? surely in the wake of the significant reforms wrought by the Rudd government (that I endorse BTW)there is no need for governemnt intervention into the lives of those who bat for that particular team. Further just how and why do you think that “he peddles fear of difference and minority”? Please give examples

4. Sure, the media go for sound-bites, but if Abbott can only provide ‘bad policy, bad government’, then that’s all they’re going to report.

He has shown on many occasions that he does far more than talk in sound bites, I think that you are just too much of a lefty to give him a fair go 😉

Gabrielle Bryden

I am with you Nigel. Abbott is a dangerous buffoon (I’d write other words but it is your blog 😉 ) – can’t believe people fall for the crap that comes out of his mouth. At least Malcolm Turnball had a degree of logic and substance to his speeches. If Abbott gets in at the next election, I will be turning off the telly for a couple of years.

Hi Gabrielle, I’ve turned off the telly already!

Iain, at the risk of sounding rude I’ll keep to the numbered dot-points.

1. Sure, Windsor had a vested interest in communicating this quote, but it certainly does sound consistent with the way Abbott speaks in general and his focus on winning at all costs specifically.
2. As it’s become increasingly clear, not all priests are pure as the driven snow. Furthermore, I’d prefer it if religion was kept out of the politics of a secular country such as Australia.
3.1 Governments should make it easier for gay and lesbian people (‘bat for the other team’ is a bit on the derogatory side, Iain), especially young people, so they know that their sexuality is respected, that there are legitimate pathways for their relationships, that they won’t be condemned to the margins, and, in short, they won’t throw themselves off buildings, which happens more frequently than you might think.
3.2 As to peddling fear of difference and minority? Abbott’s mantra of ‘stop the boats’ may as well be ‘stop the Asian people’. If Asia looked like ‘us’ (whatever that is) we wouldn’t have a problem with boat people. I’m convinced of this fact.
4. If Abbott has made a speech in which he’s genuinely wanted to elevate the discussion, I’d love to see it.

As to me being a lefty, yes, that’s my natural political inclination, but I’m not uncritical of the left, or the ALP, or the Greens. It’s just that what I’m looking for in a future leader is someone who appeals to the goodness in the population, not the narrow-minded and fearful. I am, after all, a writer.

Iain Hall

Nigel
on your points by number 😉
1.sounding consistent does not validate the quote, and you have just not established that Abbott is trying to “win at all costs”
2. I am well aware that there are priests who have been less than pure however your claim that Abbott lacks a “moral compass” is still effectively countered by the evidence of his education and training.
3. I would suggest that it is society as a whole that has to change to improve the lot of homosexuals now that the governemnt has validated being gay in every administrative way that matters. As for “bat for the other team” I mean no disrespect and I use the epithet with affection rather than derision and I have done so for years.
3.2 I don’t buy your comparison, considering that Tony Abbott and the Coalition endorse our humanitarian refugee program the racism charge can not be sustained in any meaningful way.
4. I suspect that for you only a speech that you would consider elevates the discussion would have to be based upon leftists ideology and memes 😉
😉
I like your writing Nigel because you are what I consider to be an ethical lefty I don’t agree with all of your underlying ideology but I suspect that we agree about more of the fundamentals than those that find us at odds.

Iain, frankly I don’t have the energy to keep making the same points over and over, but I do want to say that a religious background does not necessarily equate to someone knowing the difference between right and wrong.

About society having to change to help the GLBTI community – how is it going to change if our leaders aren’t going to show us what might be the opportunities/possibilities?

And on immigration: we’re an island, we have an innate fear of being invaded, particularly by people who don’t look like us; this is at the heart of our national psyche, and politicians who have no moral or ethical fibre exploit it. (That goes for both the major Australian political parties.)

To finish: thanks for your thoughts on my writing, particularly in terms of it being positioned in the ethical left, and perhaps it would be good to one day work out our commonalities. As a teaser, I have some hesitant warmth for Menzies’ central position, which was to let communities sort things out for themselves. Regrettably markets, by nature, are unfair, but I do like how some governments try not to interfere with our daily lives. Pity Howard et al have forgotten all about that.

PS I’m not sure that just because you’ve always said it and claim to say it out of affection you have a valid reason or excuse for using a term that some might consider offensive.

Iain Hall

Nigel

About society having to change to help the GLBTI community – how is it going to change if our leaders aren’t going to show us what might be the opportunities/possibilities?

Surely now that the government has changed the way that same sex unions are treated so that they are considered to be entirely equivalent to heterosexual unions the next step has to be to convince the general public that homosexual unions are as valid as straight relationships. I really don’t think that any thing done by “our leaders” is going to do this in any meaningful way Its going to take time and lots of grass roots examples of the normality of Gay unions.

And on immigration: we’re an island, we have an innate fear of being invaded, particularly by people who don’t look like us; this is at the heart of our national psyche, and politicians who have no moral or ethical fibre exploit it. (That goes for both the major Australian political parties.)

I think that being an Island is only a most peripheral part of the issue and that our concepts of doing things the right way has more to do with it. This we consider that our largess should go to the most needy, rather than those who can afford to pay for passage on one of those boats.

To finish: thanks for your thoughts on my writing, particularly in terms of it being positioned in the ethical left, and perhaps it would be good to one day work out our commonalities. As a teaser, I have some hesitant warmth for Menzies’ central position, which was to let communities sort things out for themselves. Regrettably markets, by nature, are unfair, but I do like how some governments try not to interfere with our daily lives. Pity Howard et al have forgotten all about that.

In my youth I was a lefty may self and on many issues I still hold views that would qualify as leftist (on personal liberty sexuality and the use of intoxicants, censorship) and I even retain some affection for Gough 🙄 which horrifies some of my conservative friends 🙂 which is why I have been so upset by the way that Labor has imploded under Rudd and Gillard, Had Labor not been so inept over the last decade then I would not now be supporting the Coalition

PS I’m not sure that just because you’ve always said it and claim to say it out of affection you have a valid reason or excuse for using a term that some might consider offensive.

I write a lot and I try to make what I write amusing so I use metaphors and phrases that make my prose less dry and clinical, as a writer you must appreciate that any written language has limitations in terms of transmitting tone of voice and intention. Its easier when you hear someone speaking to tell what they mean than when you read the same words as text.
Surely none of us should be excessively constrained by those who have a chip on their shoulder and will be offended even when no offence is intended.

Hi Nigel. Has Tony done something or is he just being Tony? For my own mental wellbeing, I pay as little attention to the news media as possible. I get a good enough idea of what’s going on from other sources, but some stuff does pass me by. It’s actually rather nice to be at work or at dinner and not know what people are on about.

I don’t condone ignorance, nor do I think we should be uncritical or inactive. Far from it, in fact. But I do think that one of the issues that comes from having it this good for this long means we don’t know what a real problem looks like. So our leaders squabble and token-gesture both when things are trivial and when things are deadly serious. And, yeah, that leaves little else to worry about than winning and, once you’re in, maintaining power. It seems to me like a big game everybody’s happy to play along with. It’s all a bit sad really, isn’t it?

Hi Tristan, yes, Tony is just being Tony: an arrow straight to the heart of Australia. Re. “It seems to me like a big game everybody’s happy to play along with. It’s all a bit sad really, isn’t it?” You’re absolutely right. And about just ignoring all this stuff: yes, it’s great for the mental health, and I’m doing it more and more because I’m fed up with politicians speaking to me as if I’m a moron, but sometimes I wonder if that’s exactly what they want – a disengaged populace.

Iain Hall

check this out Nigel
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/gap-between-real-abbott-and-the-bully-boy-caricature-20111004-1l75s.html

October 6, 2011 at 9:16+00:00Oct

Thanks for this, Iain – it’s an interesting piece (especially as I was at a book launch recently at which Louise Adler spoke and she’s particularly sharp and brave). I too have heard – from a very reliable source – that Abbott in person is a gentleman, and I’ve also heard that Gillard is a particularly adept public communicator. But we can’t just put the fact that this doesn’t come across very well down to the media, whose job is to question and expose. It’s what our politicians are giving the media that’s the problem – sound-bites are strategically delivered to reach as many people as possible. Rudd couldn’t communicate in a way that the average person could relate to, but Abbott – and, to be fair, Gillard – have swung so far the other way and treat us like 12 year olds. Except even 12 year olds are smarter than what the Coalition think they are.

All of this is off my central point: which is that Abbott is dangerously focussed on winning at all costs, and the truth is being lost in the mix.

Iain, I finish with this wonderful bit of leadership from someone on the opposite side of my own political convictions, but a man who has similar social – ethical? – convictions as me: http://www.towleroad.com/2011/10/uk-pm-david-cameron-supports-gay-marriage-because-im-a-conservative.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+towleroad%2Ffeed+%28Towleroad+Daily++#gay+news%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

October 6, 2011 at 9:16+00:00Oct

Agnes

“I do want to say that a religious background does not necessarily equate to someone knowing the difference between right and wrong.”

DAMN STRAIGHT